English 206 Discussion Question 4

Directions: After reading the lecture, answer one of the main questions, which will appear in bold. This question is due no later than July 30. Following that will be other questions, in black, which you should read and think about--they may help you answer the main question. However, you are not required to answer these questions in writing.

Your responses to other students' answers are due by midnight on July 31. Remember: in order to get the full 20 points, you MUST respond thoughtfully to at least 2 other people's postings. This set of discussion questions is worth a possible 20 points.

Late answers receive 0 points, so post early :)

We will be using the Canvas Discussion Board for this class. Click on the link below to get to the LACCD portal, sign in, and then click on the link for Canvas in the right column. This will take you to the Canvas dashboard. From there, click on the square with the name of our class. Once you've entered the class, you will find the "Discussions" link on the left side of the screen:

LACCD portal

Tennyson Link

Some critics say that Tennyson is really Romantic; others class him firmly with the Victorians. Look at his attitudes, style, and subject matter; based on the works of his we have read, with which group would you place him?

In "The Lady of Shalott, each "Part" ends with a line of dialogue; why?
What does the curse forbid the Lady to do? Why do we never find out exactly what the curse is?
The Lady sees other knights; how is Lancelot different from the others? Why does she fall in love with him?
Is the Lady's perception of Lancelot accurate?
The Lady sees Lancelot reflected in both the mirror and the river; why is this significant?
How are the river and the mirror contrasted in the poem?
Why does the Lady die upon the river?
Is the Lady's love good or destructive?
How does Tennyson's ambivalence toward death reveal itself in this poem?
How does Tennyson's ambivalence toward the imagination reveal itself in this poem?
How is the Lady's bower in some ways a metaphor for Eden (Paradise)?
What happens when the Lady leaves the bower? How can this be perceived as a metaphor for the loss of Eden?
What is Lancelot's reaction to the sight of the Lady in her boat?
In "The Epic [Morte d"Arthur]," what do those gathered on Christmas Eve discuss?
Why is it significant that they are gathered on Christmas Eve? Would the message of the poem have been the same if it had been set on any other night?
The narrator mentions the parson complaining about the decay of Faith; does the narrator agree with the parson?
Why did Everard burn all but one book of his epic on King Arthur?
What is the significance of the narrator's dream of Arthur's return? Why would Arthur be dressed "like a modern gentleman"?
Why do the voices say, "Come / With all good things, and war shall be no more"?
In In Memoriam, to whom is the "OBIIT" addressed? How does it set the tone of the poem?
How is Nature imagery used in the poem?
How is Tennyson's ambivalence about death expressed in this poem?
How does the narrator feel about expressing his grief so openly? Why does he do it? When he says, "But, for the unquiet brain, / A use in measured language lies..." what does he mean?
How much does the narrator trust his memory?
In section 50, when he says, "Be near me...," to whom is he speaking?
In section 54, the narrator wants to have hope and faith; does he convince himself?
Does the narrator feel the same way in section 131?
In "The Charge of the Light Brigade," what tone does the narrator set? Is he proud? Dismayed? Sarcastic? For example, how are we supposed to take the lines, "Theirs not to make reply, / Theirs not to reason why, / Theirs but to do and die"? Is the narrator being straightforwardly admiring, or sarcastic?

Robert Browning Link

1. One of the characteristics of the Victorians is their tendency to feel that poetry should be used to teach a moral or social lesson. Do you think Browning does this in his poetry?

2. "Meeting at Night" and "Parting at Morning" were originally intended to be one poem, called "Night and Morning." While he was preparing Dramatic Romances and Lyrics, in which the poem appeared, he did not send this poem to Elizabeth Barrett Browning to read, as he did the other poems in the volume. Why not, do you think?

In "My Last Duchess," the speaker is Ferrara; to whom is he speaking?
When Ferrara says, "There's my last Duchess painted on the wall," what does he mean, i.e., what is he showing his "audience"?
Why does Ferrara hide the Duchess's painting with a curtain?
According to Ferrara, what caused "that spot of joy" on the Duchess's cheek? How does Ferrara feel about it?
When he says, "She had / A heart--how shall I say?--too soon made glad..." what does he mean?
Does he accuse the Duchess of being unfaithful to him? If not, what was her "crime"?
Why does the Duchess's "joy" offend Ferrara?
What does Ferrara mean when he refers to "stooping"? Why does he refuse to do it?
When he says, "This grew; I gave commands; / Then all smiles stopped together," what does he mean?
Is the Duchess still alive? How do you know?
With whom is Ferrara negotiating? For what?
Why would he be telling this person the story of the Duchess?
In "Meeting at Night," how does the narrator describe the landscape?
How does the narrator travel?
Where is the narrator going? Who is there to greet him?
What are the implications of the "tap at the pane, the quick sharp scratch"?
Explain what the narrator means when he says, "And a voice less loud, through its joys and fears, / Than the two hearts beating each to each!"
How can the descriptions in this poem be read as sexual metaphors? (Think, for instance, of the "pushing prow" slowed by the "slushy sand.")
A "childe" was a candidate for knighthood, and thus, according to the traditions of chivalry, was virtuous, brave, loyal, and above all, faithful to God. The traditional Arthurian quest was for adventures, victories both physical and spiritual, and, finally, for the Holy Grail. Does the narrator of "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came" sound as if he fits this mold?
Why does the poem begin with a reference to Edgar from Shakespeare's King Lear?
Why does Childe Roland turn toward the Dark Tower, even though he knows that the cripple is misdirecting him?
Does Roland hope for success? Why is he so happy to be coming to the Dark Tower?
What has Roland been searching for all these years?
How does the description of the light and the landscape complement the tone of the poem?
Why does everything disappear as soon as he turns into the road to the Dark Tower? Why, specifically, does it become a "gray plain"?
How is Browning's use of Nature imagery different from the Romantics'? (Or is it?)
What is the symbolic significance of the horse Roland sees?
Do Roland's memories comfort him on his journey? Why not?
What is the symbolic significance of the river Roland crosses? What other mythic or religious connotations does the river have?
What does Childe Roland see when he arrives at the Dark Tower? Why does he go on, nevertheless?
Is Childe Roland heroic?
How do Childe Roland's decisions and actions compare with those of the soldiers in "The Charge of the Light Brigade"?

Charles Dickens, Great Expectations Link

1. Sylvere Monod says, "...Great Expectations...concerns itself with the weaknesses and pettinesses of mankind and can have no real hero or heroine..." Do you agree? That is, do you see Estella as a "heroine" or Pip as a "hero"? Explain.

2. As I said in the lecture, Dickens added a happy ending to the novel. Below are the two endings; which do you think is more appropriate for the novel?

Ending #1, the original.

"We are friends," said I, rising and bending over her, as she arose from the bench.
"And will continue friends apart," said Estella.

Ending #2, the revision.

"We are friends," said I, rising and bending over her, as she arose from the bench.
"And will continue friends apart," said Estella.
I took her hand in mine, and we went out of the ruined place; and as the morning mists had risen long ago when I first left the forge, so the evening mists were rising now, and in all the broad expanse of tranquil light they showed to me, I saw no shadow of another parting from her.

The use of coincidence in the novel bothers some readers. Did it bother you?
How does Pip's innocence as a child arouse both humor and compassion?
Pip grows up, but Joe doesn't; do you see Joe as "immature"?
Some critics see Estella as an unrealistic, improbable character. Do you agree?
Some critics see Biddy as "too perfect." Do you agree?
Some critics see the eccentricity of some of the characters--Miss Havisham, Wemmick, the Pockets--as excessive. Do you agree?
Is Magwitch a tragic figure? Or merely melodramatic?
There are "two Pips" in the novel: the young Pip, of whom we are told, and the older Pip, who is telling the story. The older Pip is as stern and honest as possible in his criticism of the younger Pip. There is very little self-pity and there are few excuses. What is the effect of this narration on your perception of Pip?
In this novel, is ambition seen as a good or bad character trait?
Why is Pip so attracted to Estella? Why is he not attracted to Biddy?
Do you see any resemblance between Magwitch and Frankenstein's monster?
Which is better, according to the novel: expectations not met, or expectations realized?
Pip does not achieve his "great expectations," but is there any victory for him in the novel?
Why does Pip forgive Miss Havisham? What has he learned that makes this possible?
Wemmick is surrounded by corruption, but is not destroyed by it. How does he manage this? What is Dickens's point here?
Is Jaggers evil?
The similarities between Pip and Pumblechook make Pip uncomfortable, but they exist. What are they? How is Pip different from Pumblechook?

Arnold Link

T. S. Eliot thinks Matthew Arnold's poetry is seriously flawed: "Arnold's poetry...is academic poetry in the best sense; the best fruit which can issue from the promise shown by the prize-poem..." He sees Arnold as an educator, rather than a poet, arguing that his poetry is wooden, immature, and moralistic. Do you agree? Explain.

In "Isolation: To Marguerite," the narrator says that even though he was far away from Marguerite, he "bade my heart more constant be. / I bade it keep the world away..." Why does he repeat "bade"?
When he says, "And faith may oft be unreturned," why does he choose to use the word "faith" instead of "love"?
In the third stanza, whom is he addressing?
When he says, in the third stanza, "...never yet without remorse / Even for a moment didst depart / From thy remote and sphered course..." what is he implying?
Why should the narrator's heart feel shame?
Why compare what the narrator's heart feels with what Luna felt? In other words, why compare his feelings with those of a mythic character?
Is the narrator "alone"?
What roles does Nature play in this poem and in the narrator's life?
Do the "happier men" of whom the narrator speaks in the last stanza experience true love?
In "To Marguerite--Continued," how does the narrator extend his own loneliness to a universal condition?
How does he use the metaphor of islands and the ocean to emphasize his point?
Why does Arnold mention nightingales, specifically, in stanza 2? Is he deliberately evoking an association with Keats? If so, what is his point?
Who ordered the isolation of the islands (i.e., the human beings)?

Pater Link

In the "Conclusion" to his essay, The Renaissance, Walter Pater says, "To burn always with this hard, gemlike flame, to maintain this ecstasy, is success in life." Do you agree?

In the first paragraph of the "conclusion" to The Renaissance, Pater says that physical life is "but a combination of natural elements to which science gives their names." What is he implying about the nature of human life?
He also points out that these elements can be found in other natural objects as well as our bodies. What is he implying about the relationship between humans and nature?
In the second paragraph, he says, "the whole scope of observation is dwarfed into the narrow chamber of the individual mind." Explain what he means.
In the following sentences, he expands on that idea, carrying it further. What conclusions does he draw about the reality of human experience?
What do his conclusions imply about permanence or security?
What do his conclusions imply about the stability of "the self"?
What does he mean when he says, "Not the fruit of experience, but the experience itself, is the end"? How would Victorians such as Dickens or Tennyson feel about that statement?
What does Pater say about habits?
When Pater says, "Not to discriminate every moment some passionate attitude in those about us, and in the very brilliancy of their gifts some tragic dividing of forces on their ways, is, on this short day of frost and sun, to sleep before evening," what does he mean?
What is the purpose, according to Pater, of philosophical theories or ideas?
According to Pater, since time is fleeting, how should we spend it?
What, in Pater's opinion, is the role of Art?

Hopkins Link

Some critics like the way Hopkins makes up words to suit the message and style of his poems; others dislike it. What is your opinion on this issue?

What does Hopkins mean when he says "Glory be to God for dappled things"?
In the first stanza, Hopkins gives several examples of "dappled" things. Why include man-made objects in the list with natural objects?
In the second stanza, he asks "(who knows how?)" Why is this question included?
Why does he include opposites in the second stanza?
What is the one thing in the poem which is unchanging?
"Spring and Fall" is dedicated "to a young child." Do you think Hopkins really meant for it to be read by young children?
What is "Goldengrove unleaving"? How is "unleaving" a play on words? That is, how does it mean two opposite things at the same time?
Reword lines 3 and 4 in more conventional syntax; how does that alter the meaning of the lines?
What does he mean when he says, "...as the heart grows older / It will come to such sights colder..."? How could the word "colder" have more than one meaning?
What does he mean when he says "Sorrow's springs are the same"? What are they? Why will she weep at the sight of the fallen leaves, even after she's seen the same sight for many years?
What thought is it that "Nor mouth had, no nor mind, expressed"?
What is "the blight man was born for"?
What does he mean, "It is Margaret you mourn for"? How can she be mourning for herself?
What is significance of the title of the poem? We see the fall, in the fallen leaves; but where is the spring?

Charlotte Bronte, Jane Eyre Link

1. Jean Rhys's novel, The Wide Sargasso Sea, is a modern retelling of the Rochester-Bertha story, from Bertha's point of view. This novel makes it clear that Bertha's madness is largely Rochester's doing. Do you find anything in Jane Eyre that would support such a point of view?

2. Jane certainly deviates from some of the social standards of her time about what roles women should play; we know, also, that Charlotte Bronte, like her character, chafed against the restrictions she faced because she was a woman. Is Jane Eyre, then, a "feminist" novel? Explain.

3. Some critics have seen the numerous coincidences in the novel as a weakness. They especially point to Jane's ending up at the Rivers household, to her "hearing" Rochester's voice in the garden, and to Bertha's ever-so-convenient death. Do you feel that the coincidences in the novel weaken it?

How does Bronte create sympathy for Jane immediately?
How does the weather, throughout the novel, function?
How important is Jane's appearance to her character? Jane thinks she is ugly; is this confirmed by others in the novel?
Does Mrs. Reed treat Jane badly because she thinks she deserves it, or because she believes it is good for her? Is her conscience clear?
Where does Jane's shyness come from?
In this novel, how do people's looks reflect their characters?
What clues, besides his looks, are you given to Brocklehurst's character right away? How does Bronte make Brocklehurst hateful?
What parts of Helen Burns's doctrine does Jane adopt for herself?
Who put a grave marker on Helen Burns's grave? What does "Resurgam" mean?
Jane tells of her childhood, and then skips 8 years to the time when she gets the job with Rochester. Why tell of her childhood at all? Why not just begin with Rochester?
What is the first indication that Jane has other relatives?
What is Bronte's purpose in creating such a strong contrast between the view and the inside of the house?
What is the first indication that something may be amiss at Thornfield? Does Mrs. Fairfax know the truth?
Charlotte Bronte, like most English people at the time, had strong prejudices against the French. How are these prejudices revealed in Jane Eyre?
Take a close look at Jane's first meeting with Rochester. In the typical Gothic novel, or in the typical fairy tale, how do the man and woman typically meet? How do they act? How does Charlotte Bronte violate these conventions in this scene?
In their second meeting, what is Rochester's attitude toward Jane? What is her response? What does Bronte intend to convey to the reader by having her two characters converse about fairies? He blames her for his horse's fall; is that fair? Why does he do it?
How do Rochester's behaviour and character change during the course of the novel?
What is Rochester's attitude toward Adele?
How does Jane respond to Rochester's attempt to boss her around?
In Victorian society, it was assumed that men were crude and active; women were passive, pure, and spiritual. Do Jane and Rochester fit into these stereotypes?
What are the clues that there may be more than meets the eye at Thornfield?
Why is Jane attracted to Rochester?
How do Jane's feelings for Rochester develop and change over time? How does Jane try to deny and resist her feelings for him?
What role does money play in their relationship? How does Rochester try to gain more influence over Jane by using money?
Why is the interlude with the Reeds set into this portion of the novel? What does Jane learn about herself? What does the reader learn about Jane?
When do you begin to suspect Rochester's feelings for Jane?
What hints or omens of evil attend their marriage plans?
Why does Jane hold Rochester at arm's length during their courtship? Does this mean she doesn't love him?
Jane sees Rochester almost as a god; is this, in the context of the novel, a good or bad thing? What hints are given that Jane is deceiving herself about Rochester?
How did Mason find out about the upcoming marriage between Jane and Rochester?
What secret does Mason reveal on Jane's wedding day?
How does Jane react to Mason's story? How does Rochester react?
Take a close look at the scene between Jane and Rochester after Jane emerges from her room. How does Rochester try to manipulate Jane into doing what he wants her to do? What makes her able to resist him?
When Jane leaves Thornfield, where does she go? What is the symbolic significance of her journey? Where does she end up?
Many critics have said that this section of the novel--the part she spends with the Rivers family--is the weakest part of the novel. Do you agree?
How does the Rivers family differ from the Reed family?
Why does St. John Rivers's attention to Jane become a burden to her? She likes to be productive; why does she not feel satisfied by her work with St. John?
How is St. John different from Rochester? Which would society, in general, say is the better man? What is Bronte's point in making them so different?
Why does St. John want to marry Jane? Why does she refuse him?
What makes her return to Thornfield? What does she find when she gets there?
How have the events of his life changed Rochester? How does Jane feel about him now?
Why doesn't Jane tell Rochester right away how she feels about him?
Why (aside from his wife's death) does Jane agree to marry Rochester now? What reservations did she have before, that have now been removed?
Does the novel have a "happily ever after" ending?
What is Bronte saying in this novel about the role of women in her society?
Jane Eyre begins as a penniless orphan, and ends up with a very good life. How does she gain the personal power that leads her to happiness?